How can a loving God be jealous, as the Bible describes? Is God envious? In this interview, Sean and Scott talk with Erik Thoennes about the proper understanding of God's jealousy. According to Dr. Thoennes, is a misunderstood and yet beautiful attribute of God that can deeply shape our daily lives.

Erik Thoennes is committed to teaching biblical and systematic theology so that he and his students love God and people more fully. He strives to make the necessary connections between the study of theology, obedience to Jesus and fulfilling the Great Commission. He has taught theology and evangelism at the college and seminary levels for several years and is a frequent guest speaker at churches, conferences and retreats, in addition to co-pastoring a local church. Thoennes has received the University award for faculty excellence and professor of the year. His research interests include godly jealousy, the atonement, the exclusivity of Christ and theology of culture.



Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: Welcome to Think Biblically, conversations on faith and culture, a podcast from Talbot School of Theology here at 91ÆÞÓÑ. I'm your host, Scott Rae, Dean of Faculty and Professor of Christian Ethics.

Sean McDowell: And I'm your co-host Sean McDowell, Professor of Christian Apologetics.

Scott Rae: We're here for a long overdue conversation with one of our favorite faculty colleagues here at Talbot, Dr. Erik Thoennes, who teaches theology in the undergrad biblical studies in theology department, is a great brother. He's also a pastor on the staff of Grace Evangelical Free Church here in La Mirada. He's got a varied history in sports, he's semi-professional football player and has the scars to show it, but also is just a first rate theologian, not only in what he's teaching, but what he's writing. And one of the things he's written on is a subject that you, as our listeners, may not have heard much about. And that is the whole subject of godly jealousy. Now, before you conclude that that's an oxymoron, let us give Erik an opportunity to spell that out. So Erik, we're delighted to have you with us. Thanks for your coming on with us to talk about this subject that we just don't hear much about. Why do you think we don't hear much about it?

Erik Thoennes: Well guys, thanks for having me. I love this podcast. It's my favorite podcast with two brothers that I have great respect for and colleagues that I love being on the same team with here at Talbot. So it's a joy to be here. This topic of godly jealousy has become a defining attribute of God for me in my life. And it actually grieves me that it either gets so little attention among Christians or is terribly misunderstood or we're even embarrassed by it and almost wish it weren't true of God. And it's been vital for me to learn about this attribute and understand it. And a lot of times good definitions help us clear a lot of the confusion away and to understand jealousy as an attribute of God who is committed to our faithfulness to him in a covenant relationship and is deeply offended by our unfaithfulness, is a wonderful thing about God and something that actually drives him toward us when we rebel and when we're a wayward bride. And it's a tremendous, tremendous attribute of God that we've got to value.

Scott Rae: Now, you've said it was actually very formative in your own spiritual development. How so?

Erik Thoennes: Well, I would say there's a broader issue when you study an attribute that is not the favored attribute a lot of people will have, or one we focus on. We tend to focus on attributes like love and mercy and grace. It seems like almost every worship song focuses on those attributes. It's pretty seldom you hear about the wrath of God or godly jealousy, or even a kind of godly hatred that opposes sin and evil. And so first of all, I think it's important to not have a selective hierarchical view of attributes that value some and appreciate some and not others. And so there can be a selective approach to the biblical portrayal of God, and then a selective approach to who God is, that ends up with a deficient view or a warped view of God.

Erik Thoennes: And so the first thing it's been helpful is seeking a whole Bible understanding of God and not a selective one based on what the culture may find palatable these days or what I'm inclined to like of about God or not. It's not a designer God we're to have. And so to lean into attributes that are difficult or hard to understand is vital. I would say that's the first and most important thing I've learned from this.

Scott Rae: You mean we don't get to make God in our own image?

Erik Thoennes: No. That's maybe our biggest problem right there. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: So Exodus 34:14 says, "You shall worship no other God." Of course, to the Israelites. "For the Lord, whose name is jealous, is a jealous God." Help us understand this passage and what it really means biblically for God to be jealous.

Erik Thoennes: Well here the Israelites are about to go into the promised land. They're going to be surrounded by pagan religions that have false gods, idolatry, pagan worship, fertility rites that are just offensive and destructive to human flourishing and to the honor of God ultimately. And so he's warning them as they go in to not have other gods besides him, the one true God. And he does that because he loves them, but he's doing it ultimately so that he'll be honored and glorified in their midst, which is the best thing for them.

Erik Thoennes: And so when he says I'm a jealous God, he's saying my name is jealous. That's how essential jealousy is to my character. You just go ahead and call me that and make a name out of it for me. And so it's a vital attribute of God, which again, is his adamant commitment to our faithfulness so that he responds with jealousy in the face of unfaithfulness, like any good husband or wife would when he or she finds their spouse being unfaithful. If you really love someone, it's got to have a healthy jealousy where you're not ambivalent in the face of adultery.

Scott Rae: Erik, I've often heard the idea of the jealousy of God referred to as more a zealousness for a people whom he loves. Is that an accurate portrayal or is that more of a euphemism?

Erik Thoennes: Well, the Hebrew word canna and the Greek word, zelos can be translated various ways. One of them is zeal. Another is envy. I don't think there's actually an occurrence in the Bible where a good translation would be envy, but zeal is this general deep desire to see something happen. So there's certainly zeal in jealousy, but if you just stay with zeal, then you miss this edge of this attribute of God that is focused on marriage metaphors, sexual metaphors that the Bible uses to talk about deep covenant relationship. And envy can be another translation, where I think I might have misspoke. Envy is a translation that we find in the Bible of zelos or canna, but not emulation. Maybe I said it right. But in the Old and New Testaments, you get examples where zeal is the right translation, it's just a general desire to see something come about. But when unfaithfulness and a covenant relationship is present, jealousy's the right translation, it loses its edge if you go at the more general translation.

Sean McDowell: So you've mentioned envy a couple times and it seems to me, envy is the desire for something you shouldn't have, but jealousy, when properly understood, is a desire for, like you said, with a spouse that one should have and would want to protect, is that fair? And is God jealous and envious or just jealous?

Erik Thoennes: Well, I think envy's always sinful. I don't think there's a godly envy because envy is the desire to gain possession of something that isn't yours. And that's very different than jealousy, which is the desire to maintain faithfulness in an exclusive relationship. And so there's a relational component of it and there's a rightness to it when it's godly. And there can even be malicious envy where it's not even good enough for me to have what you have, I don't want you to have it. And it goes to another level of envy. And so envy's always sinful. Jealousy often is on a human level, never is with God. And it's a precious attribute of God that his jealousy for our faithfulness, because that's what's best for us and what's best for his glory, would drive him to the redemptive work he does in our lives.

Scott Rae: So let's be really clear about this. What is the difference between godly and ungodly jealousy?

Erik Thoennes: So on a human level, and this is why we have such a hard time with it, I understand why we have a hard time with this because on a human level, the majority of the time probably, jealousy is sinful. One, because it's often unwarranted. You have this husband, his wife has done nothing that's unfaithful, but he'll still be jealous and it's maddening or it can even be warranted, but then it's expressed in really ungodly ways, in an abusive way or a dominating way and that certainly isn't godly. And so because we see it expressed on a human level so frequently in ungodly sinful ways, it's hard for us to imagine that God could have a pure version of this because on a human level, it's so often a destructive attribute.

Scott Rae: Well, and I can see in lots of cases on a human level, jealousy emerges out of some sort of insecurity.

Erik Thoennes: Yes, absolutely.

Scott Rae: That's not obviously not applicable to God.

Erik Thoennes: Right. And that's a vital starting point, Scott, thanks for highlighting that because we tend to project our insecurities and our frailties and sin on God. And so, because jealousy for us is so often driven by feeling unaffirmed or insecu